1. #1
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    Video Playing with R8 new features

    Great update on ZB. I instantly had to do some testing with the new boolean. Together with the new Gizmo and the zModeler it is quite powerful. I was really fumbling around, but that is also due to some absense lately on the ZB front

    I still find it strange that the split edge is unable to do the basic operation it should do. Compared to any other software it behaves really strange and I can not use it without spending 10 minutes cleaning up the mess it creates. Feel free to share some workflows on the split poly tool if you have any nice ways to do it.

    Here is the result and some videos showing the play session



    https://vimeo.com/222820974

    https://vimeo.com/222821448

    https://vimeo.com/222821456

    https://vimeo.com/222821475
    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    I still find it strange that the split edge is unable to do the basic operation it should do. Compared to any other software it behaves really strange and I can not use it without spending 10 minutes cleaning up the mess it creates.
    This is due to a fundamental limitation of the zbrush engine--it cannot tolerate ngons. Since the split would result in polygons with more than 4 verts, Zbrush must force the geometry into quads or tris. You must accept that while ZModeler adds a huge amount of functionality and flexibility to the program, it doesn't have the same strength at fine poly editing at the veryex level as a dedicated vertex by vertex poly modeler. So if you need to do a lot of that kind of work, Zbrush isn't going to be the cleanest option for it.

    In some situations, you can eliminate a lot of cleanup work by using the Slice Curve tool instead of split edge. That will cut cleanly through multiple polygons, only leaving cleanup to do at the ends where it would otherwise create an ngon. Just remember, any operation in Zbrush must result in a quad or a tri.

    Nice frame by the way.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    Yeah, I know...

    I am just a tad surprised it passed beta.
    There are other tools where it is rendered until it is done and then converted. A split poly could be preview rendered while cutting and at the last point it would do the triangle
    dance. That way it would actually work. I really want zBrush to get the final little things so I don't have to switch package so often. This one alone is a deal breaker on polyModeling,
    but as you say it is not meant to be a straight up poly modeler.

    It is awesome that we have these tools in now btw. It just keeps getting better and better.
    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    I am just a tad surprised it passed beta.
    I was an R7 beta tester. As I said it's simply an engine/tool limitation, not an error. It sounds like you'd be happier using the slice curve tool rather than split edge, because that performs as you suggest--it slices cleanly through the interior polys, only leaving cleanup at the ends where you slice into a polygon interior part way.

    Important to realize that "split edge" is really an "insert vertex" tool, not a split polygon tool that draws out an edge between two points simultaneously, which is why it creates illegal geometry on both sides. In order to do that, it would need to be inserting two vertices simultaneously on two separate edges. Zmodeler doesn't really have a tool that can do that at present. Perhaps we can look forward to something like that, though I wouldn't hold my breath for ngons.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    @Spyndel
    So the Ngon thing is why boolean edges are the way they are as well?
    Im still having trouble with them (sort of, now I'm just aiming for final result the first time with no editing afterwards) but that explains a lot, and even makes sense now!
    Thank you.

    And yah!
    Mikademius that frame is fantastic.
    nope...
    I don't know what I'm doing but I'm doing it anyway.

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    Thanks

    It is a GoPro Session. Just needed to find something cool hard surface to try out all the boolean magic on.
    There are some nice bended cuts on the main frame I am about to do which will utilize a lot of the new tools. Super cool. Look forward to that.
    Meanwhile I have been trying to just get the main frame set up.

    @spyndel:
    The slice curve will probably do the job if I use masking wisely. I am all about using all the available tools so I am open to change the tool to whatever works.
    Another thing I find strange is the extrude edge. It does not work anything as expected. If you f.ex have an open hole in the center of a cylinder plane and want to
    extrude a loop in towards the center you are left with some weird extrude where it builds a triangle fill under to mesh the whole thing instead of just... well
    extrude the edge. this has left me stuck several times so I am about to dig up some Durst videos from r7

    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    Quote Originally Posted by MealeaYing
    @Spyndel
    So the Ngon thing is why boolean edges are the way they are as well?
    Yes. If a boolean operation would result in a vertex being inserted in the middle of a polygon, which would in return result in an ngon, Zbrush must insert geometry to force quads and tris at the join. An ngon can never exist in Zbrush at any time.




    Quote Originally Posted by Mikademius
    The slice curve will probably do the job if I use masking wisely. I am all about using all the available tools so I am open to change the tool to whatever works.
    Actually, masking will *not* protect geometry from being sliced. You must make use of Zbrush's mesh visibility functions to hide any geometry you want to protect from slicing/re-polygrouping. Never slice over the edge of a hidden polygon, however. This will split that edge, and cause zbrush to insert geometry there that will be difficult to detect once everything is unhidden, but will likely cause problems at that area when smoothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mikademius
    Another thing I find strange is the extrude edge. It does not work anything as expected. If you f.ex have an open hole in the center of a cylinder plane and want to
    extrude a loop in towards the center you are left with some weird extrude where it builds a triangle fill under to mesh the whole thing instead of just... well
    extrude the edge.
    This is simply another limitation of Zbrush. At this time it cannot extrude 2d geometry from an edge into empty space without connecting it to something else. This doesn't work with transpose extrusion either. I can imagine situations where this would create geometry that Zbrush wouldn't understand. You can connect two edges along an upon hole with the Edge > Bridge command.

    Remember, Zbrush ideally wants everything to be a closed volume, preferably made of quads--this is what it understands best. From a design standpoint, the developers are always working towards ways to free users from having to be overly concerned with micro geometry at the vertex level, trying to let users focus on artistry rather than technical work whenever possible. Keeping those in mind, you get a sense of when you will be using Zbrush to its strengths, and when you might want a different tool if you've got a lot of a specific type of work to do.

    ***
    I apologize. It wasn't my intention to hijack your showcase thread, but you seem to be inviting discussion on certain matters.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    @spyndel:
    I love that you take part in the thread Don't worry about hijacking, does not feel like that at all.

    In regards to zbrush topo.
    1) Ngons. Yes, they can not ever exist in zbrush, but that doesn't mean they could in a preview render state and then fork off to tris to clean it up.
    2) Thanks for the input on the slice. I will give it a couple of runs.
    3) extrude edge limitation can probably be bypassed by bridging it to another edge. Split it and then delete the remains. Problem is that that takes longer than it should.
    A classic example is attached. Here I just need the edge to extrude up to create the rest of the remaining flow of the ring.

    I know that I should probably use Maya for these kind of things, but I really wish for Zbrush to get these minor things in and you could in theory kill Maya completely for a lot of things.
    Combining a more developed zModeler with Live booleans would be amazing.
    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    I can't be certain whats going on in that pic without a polyframe, but it looks like you could just bridge the two edges on the right and left of that gap.

    Just remember Zbrush is a box-modeler, and works best when dealing with closed, 3d volumes. Using it to model open 2d geometry is not using the tool to its strengths, like trying to unscrew a bolt with a pair of pliers. You might get the job done, but it's not its intended purpose, and a wrench would be far more efficient.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    I just want to extrude that single edge up to create a face...
    This took me literaly 10 seconds to do in Maya

    I know Zbrush is not intended to manage all polyModeling toolsets, but I find it weird that when you have awesome stuff like QMesh and other nifty things, you have none of the basics...

    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    Well, yes, but they aren't "basics" for zbrush. ZModeler represented a very advanced leap forward for zbrush, something that took them more than 15 years to get into the program. Zbrush has a specialist architecture, allowing it to do things no other program can, but also giving it some limitations on things that are much easier in other programs. Likewise, things that are *basics* in Zbrush, are beyond the reach of most other programs. We've already established that Zbrush is not strong at 2d surface editing, so what you're trying to do there is not using it to its strengths.

    You *must* adopt a box-modeling mindset with Zmodeler. That's what it's good at currently. If you insist on trying to model things as you might in a program that is good at drawing out 2d surfaces point by point, you're going to keep butting up against its limitations. It would be much easier to box model what you're trying to do there in Zbrush. I'm afraid you have to either accept that, or work with a tool that is designed to accommodate your modeling technique.

    As for specific advice to your illustration, I would be modeling that object as a solid mass. It would be much easier to do what you're doing there if that was a solid surface you could divide at will. You know that zbrush cant extrude an edge and leave it hanging in space, so it would be best to eliminate that technique from your toolbox when considering how to model something in Zbrush. From where you are now you will have to insert geometry on the opposing side letting you bridge to the other side evenly, and then divide those bridged polygons and delete what you don't need if you're determined to stick to that technique in Zbrush.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    and still no accuracy
    If you want a box or anything big like 15,7 centimeters, you can't
    A man who works with his hands is a workman
    A man who works with his hands and his head is a technician
    But a man who works with his hands, his head and his heart is an artist •
    • St François d' Assise

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    @Spyndel:

    I know. Considering what ZBrush was initially it is insane that it is where it is today. Mad props to Ofer and the team for where they are taking ZB...
    When it comes to the piece we discussed last, I would also model it solid, but this one is a duplicate of the frame in front and the thought was to flip it and work on it.
    When it comes to ZBrush not being able to leave an edge hanging in space I disagree. If you create a cylinder and delete everything but the top and then a face here and there
    you have the same geo as you would with random normal ede extrudes. I don't think it is a limitation in ZBrush that totally rules out extrude edge.

    I do agree with you that going at it like this is not utilizing zb's strenghts, but I am just hopping around trying to stress test ZB. I want to know what I can and can not do to best
    attack any asset. So far the live boolean is fantastic.

    @M i c h e l
    I don't really care about that kind of accuracy anymore unless the project requires it. I remember being totally stuck on accuracy, but now I
    am more into if it looks good or not
    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikademius
    When it comes to ZBrush not being able to leave an edge hanging in space I disagree.
    No I said it can't *extrude* an edge into space as 2d geometry. It can create polygons by bridging edges, but this an instantaneous operation like filling a hole--at no point is an edge actually being extruded. Obviously you can delete geometry after the fact, which is what you'll have to do to pursue that sort of modeling technique. Otherwise it would be better to box model it as a solid object.

    Don't get me wrong...I too would love to see these features. I was only differing with you in terms of expectation. Your statements seem to indicate you view it as an error or oversight that these features don't exist--I view it as something they haven't quite figured out how to do yet within Zbrush's unique architecture.
    -Scott
    Formerly Known As Bingo Jackson

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    Yeah. I am not trying to be difficult and I know that you are just helping out here
    I am just saying that I am surprised it has not been complained about more during beta.
    Anything can be done so it is a matter of priorities. What I DO like though is Pixologic's way
    of thinking. They see new ways of defining functions. Like how they use the face you hover over to
    determine which direction you would do an action etc. Bridge face where direction of the mouse determines
    spans and bend. I also like how they don't introduce a new ZBrush without changing the game every time.
    I was a beta tester on R4 and the clip brushes and shadow box. Then we had dynamesh which just
    flipped the workflow over to what we had been dreaming about, but stopped hoping for. Amazing!

    Here is a hack to extrude an edge




    Martin Andersson
    www.animation-hut.no

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